Tuesday, October 18, 2011

Little Bit Of Comparison

So, i decided to compare MTG and Yugioh, since i know a wee bit about mtg but i know shit about vanguard still.

One of the things that makes mtg superior to yugioh is how the game is designed. For example, mtg is designed that it is harder to lose life points unless your playing burn, whereas its so easy to lose all 8000 lp in one turn, or it can happen in the course of 2 or 3 turns.

mtg was designed so that your opponent has 20 lp, and yugioh has 8000 life points. Because mtg allows your opponent to choose to block whichever monsters you want, the game prolongs. furthermore, mtg doesnt deal the difference as battle damage to lp like yugioh does. That is not necessary a bad thing and can be healthy but when the game is designed in a way that you can dump 8000 lp worth of stuff on the field like snapping your fingers, then you have a problem there.

but its not impossible to end the game in mtg too because some creatures have flying effects or other built in effects like haste, death touch, bla bla bla.

another reason is that mtg has a larger set base. To make up for the set rotation problem (which sucks), mtg releases more cards in a set. Perhaps Yugioh OCG could release more cards, so that we have more options to play or choose from. You can really notice that YGO in the OCG now is quite stagnant and theres not much changing around so its getting kinda boring lately since everything is the same. Its different in the TCG because more cards are released cos of exclusives etc, and then the cards are really lop-sided cos some can be really broken while some really suck, which i guess are fillers only.

with that said, mtg's large set base consists of more playable themes and cards. these cards exist within the same power level which makes the game more fair. sure there are planeswalkers and stuff, and i can say almost each planeswalker is equivalent to dropping a hyperion, it makes up for it by being more generic, so each deck has its very own planeswalker unless your playing something really theme specific.

i guess what im trying to say is that the designers should make more of yugioh's cards more generic and less theme specific to ensure a lil more variation.

nowadays its all about theme theme theme, and like rauzes said, there is alot of weightage on how you build your deck in yugioh. when you play dw or angels, there are theme cards which you MUST add in order to keep it smmoth and effective.

dont you remember the times in early yugioh way before GX era only during LOB to AST, whereby there is less weightage on deck building? You dont have to throw in multiples of several copies of a certain theme card, and the best decks were ones whereby at least half of the monster base is made up of staple stuff like Sangan, Breaker, Spirit Reaper, DD Warrior Lady etc.

Take for example Zombies last time, it was just Vampire Lord, Pyramid Turtle mixed with other staples etc.

even warrior toolbox last time was not theme specific at all, whereby you just put in don zaloog, exiled force, dd warrior lady and other random warriors, and 3 reinforcements of army. there was no "Mainspring for Mainspring only" or stuff like that.

the most themed deck last time was probably gadgets and its just putting in 9 gadgets while everything else is generic.

remember how goat control was shaped from putting the very best cards in the game while backed up by a great ideology of stopping every single option of your opponent with TER, BLS etc?

Maybe im just nostalgic but then yeah its totally more boring nowadays. Maybe Konami should make it less about appealing to kids and i think they are kinda sidetracking from the original Yugioh which we all loved.

maybe this is why everyone is going into VG because it was designed by Kazuki Takahashi himself and it probably aims to try to correct every loophole YGO has. I just dont like the art. Prefer more mystic kinda art like MTG or old school YGO :D

anyhow this is not a rant, and its just a comparison :D

thank you for reading.

edit: due to large amount of response, (never knew i would get that many) i guess what i mean to say is that i want to see more decks that are less theme specific. problem was the repitition of seeing certain decks over and over again got to me. themes nowadays are good enough to keep up with good decks that comprise of non themed cards like junk doppel. so yeah. just wanted to see more theme decks vs non theme decks in the game around. just personal opinion.

i still think that sets should be larger in ocg, and stuff like that lol


Bong 王 said...

I totally agree with you. YGO now is a total mess. Not just you, everyone misses the good old days where you can laugh and cry when you play the card game. It's a pity that Konami never takes what the players have to say into account. All they care for is money money and more money which is a extremely idiotic!

However, taking a look at the next structure deck reminds me a bit of the good old days with Blue-Eyes and co. I just wish that Konami will ban all those power cards and make it like MTG whereby you'll win if you have the skills and you'll lose if you cannot read the opponent's plays. YGO is now more to autopilot and the deck plays itself.

Saikon said...

I don't really agree with a 'stale' or 'unskilled' meta right now, but I don't think MTG has such good variety either. Every card game has problems, and that is just the way it is.

The 2010 World Championship in MTG, the top 8 decks consisted of 5 UB Jace, 1 UW Jace, 1 Black Aggro and 1 Eldrazi Green. (The names are just made up by me, I din't know what they are called.)
That pretty much says "Jace wins."

I'm not saying MTG is better or worse than YGO, but I think most players just think that the grass is always greener on the other side.

JDAManson said...

Maybe I'm misunderstanding, but it seems like the game would be more stagnant if every deck was made up of only a few theme cards and a bunch of staples because more decks would be running more of the same things. I do remember back when EVERYBODY ran a lot of the same staple monsters, and it's kind of funny now to see things like D.D. Warrior Lady and Spirit Reaper have some sort fallen to the wayside. But I think the move towards tribal gameplay is what makes Yugioh distinct and fun right now, besides the rush that at any moment a card could be drawn that completely changes the game (which I suppose is a problem in and of itself).

I do agree with the sentiment that the primary skill in Yugioh is deckbuilding. There aren't a lot of ways to use cards, since effects are pretty straightforward. So there isn't a whole lot of room to out play something like, say, Hyperion, because it is just inherently good, not because of the way it's used but just because it has an extremely powerful effect.

Bahamut84 said...

"the designers should make more of yugioh's cards more generic and less theme specific to ensure a lil more variation."

More generic to ensure variation? I'm lost o_O

I don't know how is it boring. 8 years ago when everyone's deck is 20+ staples and chaos monsters, that is the real boring.

The deck variety that is winning tournaments today is so many that you can hardly call it boring, unless you are just sick of seeing the same 3-4 decks constantly.

Anonymous said...

I like how the game is right now. It was not much of a difference as last time . I don't remember confiscation being one time in which one would "laugh and cry". Its total despair.

The tcg has cards which are better than us. One thing that we all know that people who top YCS are often the ones who fork out the most money into the game , for example we always see them with a playset of tour guides .

This is what separates pros and scrubs. Having more money gives you an edge in possibly everything even yugioh.

Also , I see people whining everyday about everything about yugioh and it is very annoying. The trending topic is often about the TCG exclusives. I hope you get what I mean.

Shizuka Magnifico said...

I think if anything yugioh is moving in the RIGHT direction. The original problem was that too many decks were exactly like each other thanks to all the staples, but now you have a ton of variation in top tier decks. There are very few cards people even consider "staples" anymore-- and you are seeing decks with themes at the top, instead of a deck which has a mix of a bunch of random plants dragon warriors etc because they're all just great cards.

The main difference between Magic and Yu-gi-Oh is pacing-- Magic is a much more slow paced game, Yu-gi-oh is fairly fast paced. It comes down to preference, I for one prefer summoning monsters without having to devote deck space to mana. I will grant you, there is more variety in Magic, but I personally think there is a lot more resource management in yu-gi-oh-- You have to be aware of your hand size to not over extend, your graveyard to set up strategies, the number of monsters on your field, the number of outs you have, as well as all your opponents resources. In Magic, you really only need to worry about your own mana, and maybe hand size. Anything that happens to your creatures is meaningless, because for the most past most of the creatures are meaningless.

In the end though, it's all preference.

mike said...

@ all of you- thank you for your insight.

will reply u bit by bit because im tired

@ bong- thanks :)

@ saikon- thats why jace got banned suddenly if im not mistaken? i feel its not that unskilled, but its just stale to me lol. personal opinion i guess

@ JDA- yeah i dunno maybe its the effects from straying from ygo for too long , being buried in my books but the decks are built without much variance n that is jst kinda borin to me :/

@ baha- i think i am. i think what i meant was the way the deck is built is boring. lol. maybe i just miss the old days le :(

@ awesomehznuts- sorry then :( i know what you mean too.

@ shizuko- i guess i should think abt wad i said again. thx for the feedback

blackwingEX said...

No offense but I think you read too much into the Death Aspect Blog... It's not the game mechanics of yugioh that is bad, it's the prize support/marketing/rarity bumps/secondary market/tournament organization that's killing the fun over there...

yugioh's more dynamic gameplay makes it susceptible to magnify the effects of inherently powerful cards like tengu/tourguide/rabbit
that makes deckbuilding seem stale... though the themes doesn't really hurt since themed decks are more linear but are still open to alternate builds like TGAgents, ChaosBF, Dimensional Samurai, AHL Gbeasts, Twilight, Stun Scraps etc. etc.

The banlist will take care of the creeps, newer cards will take care of the older creeps (notice how Xyz Monsters aren't broken, even leviair needs setting up, usable up to 2 times and doesn't nuke cards like scrap dragon, brionac, trishula)

But if you'll just look at the card game as just a card game without the rarities, the price tag of the cards, the harsh realities of trading and how much it drains your time and money (there's no need to go pro anyways) then I say the game is still cool, especially on the deck-building part.

heck the anime just adds more fun into the game :D

Rauzes said...

Both MTG and YGO were early type trading card games, and hence were INHERENTLY flawed at several levels as the games grew, as the developers did not have experience behind them when they designed the game.

the difference is that MTG went back and fixed their problems. YGO did not.

obkung said...

If you know the history of Yugioh you will know why it's different from MTG. Kazuki Takahashi love playing games and one day come across a card game- MTG but he can't play it, it's too difficult for him so he ask one of veteran player how to play he got rejected something like collecting 1000 cards and I will teach u something like that thus he create Yugioh to tell the world that card games can be more easier to play and it hits. (according to his interviewed long ago)

Kazuki thinks that player should choose their card one by one so good-stuff deck were meta (emphasized further in characters' deck, main character has good stuff deck --Yugi, Kaiba, Jounouchi, Marik, Atem. whereas side characters play theme based deck --Haga, Ryusaki, Kagiki, Bandit Keith, Mai. After original series end things started to change since theme deck generates more money.

Yugioh are heading the right way in term of variety since every deck are not looking the same but the thing that broke is its speed. It's changed with the introduction of synchro. not to mention themed specific draw engines make games super fast. I mean 1 pot of greed vs 3 specific draw engines which one is faster?

Well, I agree with you because I also miss the old days (before Chaos) every deck are not that much different but it took more thought on the deck which one to add not just 3 theme specific each, throw some good fillers and you're good to go. And also the ability to add new cards to the deck every new sets are released. One by one, bit by bit, not to mention hidden tech to surprise the opponent, cough them off guard. If you look at champ deck at that time there must be some cards that you wonder why they put it there, but for now nope it's just the tool box for that deck that you already known. In term of playing, the old day took skill to win, these days, if you make the deck right, autopilot.

Ladfan4life said...

I remember back when the only deck that won were Chaos(CED and BLS), ppl complained and they were banned. Then goat control was the only deck that won, and ppl complained and that was banned. Then Chaos with sorcerer was the only thing that won and ppl complained and it was banned. People complained that only cookie cutter decks won. So konami started making themes that were good, starting with sams and dheros and then gb and so on. Then they make DaD, LS and synchors. They were good, and people complained. I think konami just got tired of ppl complaining and said f* it we'll make what we want. The only problem ygo has ever had is that what ever is winning becomes really expensive. But every card game ever made has had that problem one way or another. Magic is the only game that has been able to control it to a point were its tolerable(dont know it i spelled that rite, to lazy to check).

Gizer said...

This game is indeed becoming a bit of a mess. Thing is, it's having a snowball effect. It's going to get to the point where it escalates too out of control where either everyone just stops playing or there will only be a competitive scene and no casual gamers. There is too big of a rift between players as it is, so it would be unfortunate to see that gap widen.

I'm playing more MTG as of late, mostly because it's more balanced as you mentioned. But I'm also curious to this other game you mentioned in the post.

Chen Xian said...

really like ur article. As far as I see in YGO, banlists are created based on people's complains. And the reprint cards really a good proof that it is useless to buy any expensive cards

MondaySSS said...

i am pretty certain that VG is designed by Akira was kazuki’s assistant when making the yugioh manga and the yugioh R spin off

see wiki for more accurate detail


Anonymous said...

It's all about theme in MtG too (the colors)

Heavy shit eater said...

Its not about MTG and YGO, its about TCG and OCG.

TCG should be destroyed and the game should be equalized; not only for card prizes, exclusives, and packs (duel terminal, for example), but also for rulings and metagame.

the game is also getting very boring. i find no exitement on goin to locals and only wait for mid/high level tourneys (whatever its not a local tourney, please).

according to what Gizer said, i prefer a "competitive scene" than a "massive quit out of the game" tendency.

mike said...

@ BW EX- ya maybe :)

i realise that what i said is dumb n then its just because im bored with it, the way the decks are built (want more generic less themed decks still like junk doppel or crane exceed for example), and stuff. the game design is ok la but i still wish we had bigger sets, and the lp thing yeah.

@ obkung- really? i have like every single grpahic novel and it seems kazuki created yugioh originally as a guy who got bullied but inherited powers + friends when he solved the puzzles. the cards "duel monsters" were just a random part of the storyline, but the response was so huge and good (fan mail) that kazuki decided to turn yugioh into a manga about card games.

@ ladfan4life- response in the post in the edited part.

@ Chen Xian- thanks :)

@ gizer- its called Cardfight Vanguard

@ monday- well thats contradictory. someone said it was by kazuki himself. oh well doesnt matter !

obkung said...

well the part I told just how the idea of "duel monster" come from. At first he intended it to be just 2 chapters card games, come and go but it hit, tons of fans' letters come to his house asking to know more of a game. The main story line is just like you already know, you could say he's one lucky guy so he change all story lines to be card game based. Well in the manga the game is called "Magic and Wizard", even the creator of the game Pegasus J crawford has the same letter to the creator of MTG if I recall correctly

obkung said...

And Vanguard is created by Akira Itō, Kasuki's assistance. The new card game that he invented is called Advent Hero. Well it isn't trading card game though, it's 52 card game thing with unique game play. One deck each person and you're good to go. http://studio-dice.com/#/game

blackwingEX said...

oh btw...

people over here are selling themed decks left and right (deckbuilding does get boring) and that we do need to make larger sets or at least to make the structure decks less generic...

one example is how the machina structure deck user eventually branch out to KMP or gadget Xyz users

the structure decks really bring new players to speed by retraining older cards to teach basic gameplay

kind of how you learn how the old tele-dad works via the agent structure (it somewhat has a DAD, stratos, tuner, destiny draw, solemn judgement)

otherwise you have to play mystic tomato and such to learn the concept of recuiters/floaters

mike said...

@ obkung- thanks for the reference. magic n wizards does sound similar to mtg in a way...when i first read duel masters (another manga), in the beginning, shobu was playing the real mtg with manas and stuff but later the artist changed it to duel masters card game

@ HSE- i know about tcg and ocg la, but what i was trying to do in this post was compare ocg and tcg (which fail quite badly lol however i wont delete it). urmm. its just that i bring up the ocg tcg topic a lil because its all inter-related thats all